Posts by Marvin Shilmer

i think with all this change we see occurring with the watchtower corporation's to deal with things means they are in financial trouble and are seeking to consolidate their real estate holdings for easy sale if needed to stay financially solvent.. they will stop or slowly decrease the door to door work and focus on the material potential of each member young and old for what ever they can get out of them.

this will lead to more leaving under their tyranny.

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Marvin Shilmer

The Watchtower organization is laced with cash. My guess is their using cash to building a financial foundation that is practically untouchable and will support its activity for the indefinite future even if they lose every single donor down the road at some point.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

Talking fundamentally, in terms of time, looking back at your posts, the only changes I see are in the drafting of your broadcast. No point for you to continue this discussion with me, all my posts say the same thing-As far as I know.

That's about as perfect a non-answer as I've ever read.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

Fisherman,

I don't know what your motive is, and really don't care. But your analysis of this discussion and assertions of fact is quite entertaining to read.

The document at issue is an agreement. You don't seem to like this. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

Fundamentals of the document at issue are known by Watchtower and those fundamentals represent a change in Watchtower policy compared to its 1992 position. You don't seem to like this either. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

Executing the document at issue (or its equivalent) can make the difference of life and death for a child. This notion also seems to get under your skin. I don't know why, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

In this discussion you've had evidence handed to you at every turn. What do you do? Ignore it of course, and then come up with strawman illustration to assert a fallacy of me. I don't know why you do things like this, and really don't care to understand, but it is entertaining to watch.

So, here's my question to you: Do you see any difference between fundamentals of the letter of understanding document compared with Watchtower's published 1992 policy? If so, what?

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

I think that you shouldn't have to decide what people should know. Didn't I tell you that before in one of my posts? In fact, Defender of Truth having all of your pointed references too, claims that he does not know either.

I haven't decided what you know. I have decided what you should know based on evidence put before you. Perhaps you can't read, or perhaps you don't want to. But evidence has been put before you that you ignore for reasons unstated.

5 days ago in this very discussion you were pointed to source material documenting that the instrument at issue is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. Ether you're not paying attention when this was pointed out, or else you're not reading.

Neither is the Letter of Understanding posted on this thread a terms of service document because you proclaim that it is.

A document that presents conditions and services that will be rendered that also documents acknowledgement of those conditions and services is commonly understood by layfolk and lawyers as a terms of service document. Of course you are free to characterize it however you want. The instrument at issue outlines conditions and services and both parties acknowledge these as operating foundations.

I have concluded from reading your posts that you know what a fact is.

Excellent!

What I have concluded after reading the article you referenced is that the Court ordered a blood transfusion. I also concluded that the parents did not want their child to receive a blood transfusion. I also concluded that this article does not support your conclusion about the LOU posted on this thread.

You're free to think as you will, which is how it should be. But your conclusion avoids the point because it ignores the information in that media report that is relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about a letter of understanding document where JW parents in writing acknowledge in advance that a medical facility may transfuse blood to their child if in the opinion of the medical staff this is necessary to protect life and/or health of the child. This is, in effect, exactly what the letter of understanding does.

Mavin Shlimer, I think that you know that I do not want to waste any more time posting that I disagree with your conclusions about the LOU posted on this thread. It seems to me, that in your reference 3 of your blog, you would have quoted from the article, the part that most supports your conclusions, but I have concluded, that what you posted from the article, does not document or even support what you have asserted about the LOU. I know for a fact that I will keep my forty dollars.

Whether you agree or disagree with me is of no importance to anyone here other than you.

If you want to learn more about the referenced material you need not spend 40 bucks. You can go to a nearby public library, which is where I found and read the article along with a great many others on this and other topics. No one can make a horse drink.

An additional excerpt from Frolic et al:

"The need for a policy to guide staff when Jehovah’s Witness (JW) parents of pediatric patients refuse to consent for medically necessary blood products emerged from an ethics case consultation. The JW parents involved in the case were told by hospital staff that that the local child protection services (CPS) would be contacted to seek a temporary judicial apprehension order to ensure that their child received necessary treatment if they persisted in their refusal to consent to blood transfusion; this was the hospital’s usual practice at the time. The JW Hospital Liaison Committee members supporting this couple inquired whether an option existed for them to sign a letter of understanding (LOU) indicating their acknowledgment that their child will receive necessary transfusions, without requiring either their explicit consent or CPS involvement to temporarily apprehend the child. This option did not exist at HHS, but did exist at a neighboring hospital. After this case, the local JW Hospital Liaison Committee encouraged HHS to develop a similar policy and LOU; this idea was supported by the HHS administration and an initial draft was created by hospital legal counsel. The goal of the policy was to promote collaborative relationships between JW parents and health care providers, and to clarify the process for obtaining consent for blood products with pediatric patients in light of the relevant recent Supreme Court decision in AC v Manitoba (2009)."

The article goes on to talk rather extensively about the development process, which of course included discussion with Watchtower appointed hospital liaison committee representatives.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

I did not know this ever, even though you conclude that I should.

Then either you're not paying attention or else you're not reading. 5 days ago in this very discussion you were pointed to source material documenting that the instrument at issue is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. I see no need to repeat myself. See reference 3 in my blog article. You know how to find it.

Are you saying that you know for a fact that Watchtower (appointees) asks for the LOU posted on this thread in connection with medical treatment?

I know this for a fact. I also know for a fact that the critical language of this agreement is documented to have been requested by Watchtower representatives for sake of parents with JW children in need of medical attention.

I disagree, the LOU does not say that.

Because a document does not contain the phrase "terms of service" does not mean it is not a terms of service document as constructed.

At this point you're quibbling and adding nothing to the subject.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

... can you please show from the "Letter of Understanding" that it is an agreement.

A JW parent who signs this letter of understanding is agreeing to terms of service of the institution, one of which is that medical staff may administer blood transfusion if necessary. This is not an agreement to accept blood transfusion. It is an agreement on the terms which the institution will provide services to the patient.

...can you please explain, if you know for a fact , that the same document is being used by the Watchtower?

"Used" has many connotations. The document is known by Watchtower appointees and is asked for by those appointees for sake of JW parents having the opportunity to sign it. But you should know this by now. So what is your question for? Watchtower representatives have also encouraged other medical facilities to develop/adopt similar documents.

77

Blood Transfusion: Letter of Understanding

by defender of truth in

http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding.

"every parent among jehovahs witnesses worried about how local watchtower appointed elders will respond to letting their child have blood transfusion without opposing it should download this letter of understanding and be ready to hand a copy to them.

then ask those elders to leave them (the parents) and doctors alone to concentrate on the childs best interests.".

Marvin Shilmer

It is very interesting, how on this thread, you refer to the "LOU" as an agreement..
Glad you find it interesting.
On this thread, by referring to the LOU as an agreement, did you think, that some people that tried reading your commentary, could conclude that you meant, that the LOU was an agreement between an entity and a JW parent, that when properly executed is an authorization to administer blood transfusion to a JW child?
People can conclude all sorts of things, but nowhere in this discussion have I suggested the letter of understanding is an agreement authorizing administration of blood transfusion.
I think, that after reading your commentary on this thread and the LOU posted on this thread, some people could reasonably conclude that the LOU posted on this thread is an agreement.
The letter of understanding is (IS!!!) an agreement.
The LOU posted on this thread when properly executed is not an agreement because I have shown that the JW parent is not agreeing to a BT and neither is the WT.
Because a document is not an agreement to administer blood transfusion is not evidence the same document is not an agreement. You're talking nonsense!
I think that the WT should not have to publish material that they do not want published.
Of course Watchtower is free to do as it wants, which is what Watchtower does. But failing to publicize an effective change and leaving a more stringent position as though place is dishonest.
I also think that some WT literature is private for church use only and should not be published if the WT does not want it published.
Glad you have an opinion. Glad you felt free to share it. I disagree. The document in question can have a life and death consequence for a child. When it comes to saving lives I'm willing to publish what a religious organization opts not to.